Armed Robber Shot Dead - Video

X-PGH

"小鬼" 持枪打劫, 被警察拦下后, 在 pat down 之前, 小鬼子撒丫子就逃, 警察叔叔是 说时迟, 那时快 ... 啪, 啪, 啪, 啪啪,  ...  小鬼被击中背部, 后毙命.  去年在 PGH, 几乎是类似的情景, Drive-By 的小鬼下车就跑, 结果叔叔在背后放了两响"炮仗", 小鬼就去拜见阎王爷了.   时候警察叔叔被起诉, 陪审团还是从异地 "选送" ... 结果 叔叔 还是 被判无罪 ...

Released BC video(s)

https://vimeo.com/354040149

News

https://www.yahoo.com/news/devon-baileys-family-calls-death-032549500.html

palm

ERT怎么这么啰嗦啊？居然不知道caller的电话号码。

zliu2003

The suspect was reaching for his pocket while he was running way. It's clearer from the body camera of 2nd cop.

chevoodoo

小鬼如果跑掉，同时又掏出手枪来，警察和所有的路人都处在危险中了。

双筒

这个事件，从视频和后续事实来看，我认为小鬼的家人说的对：the shooting is unjustified.  It's not a crime to have a gun, even if it were an illegally acquired weapon, the owning, in and by itself, does not make it right for police to shoot you.  Yes he did run away from the police, you may even call it "resist of arrest", but that, in and by itself, doesn't mean you deserve to be shot either.  You may say he deserved to be shot for committing armed robbery, but that's up to the jury, not these officers.  If the police ran into him *WHILE* he was performing the armed robbery, then and only then they would be entitled to shoot him.  That window had passed when this video was recorded.  This is the kind of standards we'd be scrutinized by in a self defense shooting, I think it's only fair to hold the police accountable to same standards...

双筒

chevoodoo 发表于 2019-8-16 12:20
小鬼如果跑掉，同时又掏出手枪来，警察和所有的路人都处在危险中了。

这也适用于任何一个concealed carrying person，包括你我啊。。。

双筒

BTW, the *entire concept* of "illegal weapons", whether it was "illegally" obtained or just owning it, should be deemed UNCONSTITUTIONAL if you believe in the 2nd amendment.  All weapons should be legal, it's what you do with it makes all the difference...

Just my humble opinion

doublepar

双筒 发表于 2019-8-16 09:59
这个事件，从视频和后续事实来看，我认为小鬼的家人说的对：the shooting is unjustified.  It's not a cri ...

I beg to differ. It's not the running part, but the reaching for waistband part that got him killed. He may or even may not have a gun. But it doesn't make any difference. Furtive movement has long been accepted and ruled a jutifiable cause for defensive shooting. It doesn't need to be a correct judgement by the police (and to a larger extent, a CCW civilian). The standard is Reasonable. Even the then split-second judgement is proved factually wrong by hindsight.

双筒

doublepar 发表于 2019-8-16 14:21
I beg to differ. It's not the running part, but the reaching for waistband part that got him killed ...

And that's why we have a system that give us the right to protest, when we see injustice in life.  It's not racism, but it sure is wrong, and we need to protest until the law (and public perception) have been changed.  Once upon a time an army armed to the teeth could open fire on unarmed students and civilians just because they were protesting on Tiananmen Square, and got away with it. Change won't come overnight, and it certainly will never come if we let ourselves to accept the status quo as the norm...

双筒

doublepar 发表于 2019-8-16 14:21
I beg to differ. It's not the running part, but the reaching for waistband part that got him killed ...

BTW I didn't see him drawing or reaching for anything, and that was the basis for my conclusion.  All I saw was the police told them there'd be a search, and he took off running, then the officer shot him, that's it.  If you saw differently, then maybe you are right and I am wrong.  But insofar, I don't see any justifiable cause for leathal forces to be deployed...

aerostar

双筒 发表于 2019-8-16 10:04
这也适用于任何一个concealed carrying person，包括你我啊。。。

CCW的你我会在警察明令我们不要动不要掏口袋的情况下边跑边掏口袋？

双筒

aerostar 发表于 2019-8-16 15:28
CCW的你我会在警察明令我们不要动不要掏口袋的情况下边跑边掏口袋？

我不会，但跑不是当场击毙的正当理由，另外我没有看见掏口袋。 而且就算掏了，在那之前警察并没有掏枪指着他们要arrest，只是要搜查，等跑起来了警察才掏的枪，边喊hands up边开枪了。 作为fellow CCW'er，你觉得这是我们应该遵循的开枪原则吗？。。。

winterwang

双筒兄，你说的很多观点我同意，尤其是警察的行为必须在一定的accountability的框架下，以避免警察的权利无所制约。不过，警察开枪的权限好像与我们平民CCW的原则是有所不同的。警察的权限要比我们更加宽泛一些。用我们CCW的原则去套警察的行为肯定是不完全对的。记得以前这里讨论过这个问题。考古一下应该能挖出来。

chevoodoo

双筒 发表于 2019-8-16 12:38
我不会，但跑不是当场击毙的正当理由，另外我没有看见掏口袋。 而且就算掏了，在那之前警察并没有掏枪指 ...

这几个video其实已经把全部细节都清晰还原了。被击毙的boy，跑起来的时候右手有伸向腰间的动作，但事实是他的枪是夹在裤裆里面的，轻易恐怕取不出来。当然这是后话。
感觉警察反应过度，结果就是临检的时候，哪一个程序不正确、哪一个动作不规范，即刻有警察的子弹打来。

双筒

winterwang 发表于 2019-8-16 16:01
双筒兄，你说的很多观点我同意，尤其是警察的行为必须在一定的accountability的框架下，以避免警察的权利无 ...

是的，警察有逮捕权我们没有（well，我们可以citizen's arrest但还是不是一回事），警察开错枪了可能丢工作我们可是要坐牢的。 但basic principal是一样的，shoot to stop。 所以what should be stopped with a gun就是标准，而警察现在的确标准有点低，需要用force的时候都用lethal force了，那还要泰瑟干嘛呢对吧。。。

Victor.Wang

双筒 发表于 2019-8-16 13:33
是的，警察有逮捕权我们没有（well，我们可以citizen's arrest但还是不是一回事），警察开错枪了可能丢工 ...

终于明白 为什么 有 ROBOCOP 的电影了

哎，悲哀吧

Victor.Wang

还好在加拿大，远离是非之地

maxsterling

双筒 发表于 2019-8-16 09:59
这个事件，从视频和后续事实来看，我认为小鬼的家人说的对：the shooting is unjustified.  It's not a cri ...

这次警察开枪好像没有问题。定格暂停看看LZ贴的视频从11:11到11:13的阶段，小黑根本不是正常跑路的样子，双手没有摆开，一直在前面在掏什么东西。
这种情况对警察来说是一种life threatening的状况。
陪审团可能就是因为看了这一小段逃跑的视频，才定警察无罪的。如果正常的摆开双臂跑，警察从后面开枪，警察绝对要承担责任。

两年前被警察命令在酒店走廊爬过来的老白Daniel Shaver也被警察打死了，他那个才是真的冤枉。快爬到警察这边来的时候提了一下裤子，但被警察误认为是手到腰间摸东西，结果被射身亡。虽然冤，但是因为还是有那个让人误解的“危险动作”，所以警察最后无罪释放。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

油管上面的视频都不详细，只有华邮这个视频到最后时比较清楚，Daniel Shaver在3:54左右时有一个右手摸腰的动作，结果立刻被早就吓破胆的警察开枪打死了。就是因为那个无心的动作，让Daniel Shaver丢掉了性命，而且警察虽然被开除，但是法庭上无罪。（而且最近又被重新雇用了）
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/07/13/fired-shooting-an-unarmed-man-officer-was-rehired-so-he-could-collect-lifetime-pension/

所以深刻的经验教训是：被警察枪指着命令时，一定要象没有双臂的残疾人那样。

aerostar

双筒 发表于 2019-8-16 12:38
我不会，但跑不是当场击毙的正当理由，另外我没有看见掏口袋。 而且就算掏了，在那之前警察并没有掏枪指 ...

问题是不光是跑，是边跑边掏口袋。谁知道你口袋里是什么？现在不是说警察有没有做到最好，而是他的做法是不是违法，是不是触犯了现有的法律。这个门槛是很高的。话又说回来，的确很很多Trigger Happy的警察。这个还不是最让人气愤的，那个在旅馆里打死一个被警察搞蒙了的，还有CCW网上直播被杀的，现有的法律对警察的保护过了头。

ms86

一句话，在警察面前别做危险动作。