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西雅图的靶场不给非美籍上课了?!

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发表于 2016-5-23 12:25 | 只看该作者 |只看大图 回帖奖励 |正序浏览 |阅读模式
上个月我才上了课,还想让家里领导也去呢,结果就发现人家改规定了,看条款的意思是绿卡也不行,这感觉略坑爹啊,尼玛我可以买枪却不能学枪,真诡异。。。
http://www.westcoastarmory.com/

Restrictions:

**** IMPORTANT: BELLEVUE GUN CLUB CANNOT PROVIDE ANY TRAINING OR ASSISTANCE IN TRAINING TO FOREIGN NATIONALS DUE TO INFORMATION FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT (U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ITAR) REGARDING REGULATIONS PERTINENT TO FOREIGN CITIZENS AND ARMS TRAINING. ***


You must be a U.S. Citizen in order to take firearms training courses. If you are NOT a U.S. Citizen you may not take this course. There are no exceptions to this.

All participants must be 13 years of age or older. Minors must be accompanied by a legal parent or guardian.

All participants must be able to speak and understand English fluently and without the assistance of a translator.

Women who are pregnant will not be allowed to attend any of our shooting courses as the noise percussions and lead exposure can be dangerous to the baby's health.


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50#
发表于 2016-5-31 12:24 | 只看该作者
结论是,ITAR/AECA 没有禁止绿卡接受训练,某些组织或商家做得更进一步,没有法律依据,但是是他们的自由,这个跟 GCA 里的猎照豁免也没有冲突。
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49#
发表于 2016-5-31 12:21 | 只看该作者
helloterran 发表于 2016-5-31 08:55
所以结论是啥?

我的理解:没有加入美籍的网友们拥枪练枪的权利是ATF给的(但是不受宪法保护)

美国国内和 ITAR 对应的是  Arms Export Control Act,和 Gun Control Act 里禁止非移民持枪(以及猎照豁免条款)一点都不矛盾,都是必要条件。

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48#
发表于 2016-5-31 08:55 | 只看该作者
所以结论是啥?

我的理解:没有加入美籍的网友们拥枪练枪的权利是ATF给的(但是不受宪法保护)

这个ITAR在美国国内既没有法律来enforce他,也和ATF的法规直接冲突,目前可以置之不理?

NRA支持ITAR是脑残
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47#
发表于 2016-5-29 00:18 | 只看该作者
wxh1227 发表于 2016-5-29 00:00
支持它拥枪 不支持它这条 现在NRA是认为可以牺牲非美籍人民的利益,所以不能惯啊,今天牺牲上课的权利, ...

能不能拥枪和打枪,NRA根本没有发言权
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46#
发表于 2016-5-29 00:00 | 只看该作者
idee 发表于 2016-5-28 11:46
还是应该support NRA或者别的pro gun组织的。否则等你入籍,原本可以获得的自由可能已经失去了很多
...

支持它拥枪 不支持它这条 现在NRA是认为可以牺牲非美籍人民的利益,所以不能惯啊,今天牺牲上课的权利,明天说不定连去打枪都不让了呢

要支持等NRA能替我们说话再说吧
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发表于 2016-5-28 11:46 | 只看该作者
wxh1227 发表于 2016-5-28 07:36
才开始玩枪就碰到这事儿 本来还在考虑加入NRA给他们送钱 这下可以省了

还是应该support NRA或者别的pro gun组织的。否则等你入籍,原本可以获得的自由可能已经失去了很多
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44#
发表于 2016-5-28 07:36 | 只看该作者
才开始玩枪就碰到这事儿 本来还在考虑加入NRA给他们送钱 这下可以省了
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43#
发表于 2016-5-25 09:25 | 只看该作者
doublepar 发表于 2016-5-25 07:07
Foreign Person 买和拥有子弹也要猎照,不光是枪。本地有例子,留学生买子弹被 ATF 查水表,最后人被遣返 ...

问题是ITAR没有HL的exemption啊, 只要是 foreign person 就是违反了ITAR(而不是联邦枪支法)。 实际结果就是俩federal law 互相冲突还互不隶属。

就等出事了。
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42#
发表于 2016-5-25 07:11 | 只看该作者
oskarlre 发表于 2016-5-25 06:52
22 CFR 120.16 - Foreign person.

§ 120.16 Foreign person.

同意。NRA文盲太多。
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发表于 2016-5-25 07:07 | 只看该作者
oskarlre 发表于 2016-5-25 05:59
这个定义我知道, 问题就在于这两点的冲突。

一方面美国联邦到地方都允许foreign person 的枪支购买和 ...

Foreign Person 买和拥有子弹也要猎照,不光是枪。本地有例子,留学生买子弹被 ATF 查水表,最后人被遣返。

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40#
发表于 2016-5-25 06:52 | 只看该作者
alex 发表于 2016-5-25 06:42
你先给个明确的foreign person的定义。
我的理解跟foreign person相对应的是us person,这个应该是包括绿 ...

22 CFR 120.16 - Foreign person.

§ 120.16 Foreign person.
Foreign person means any natural person who is not a lawful permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) or who is not a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3). It also means any foreign corporation, business association, partnership, trust, society or any other entity or group that is not incorporated or organized to do business in the United States, as well as international organizations, foreign governments and any agency or subdivision of foreign governments (e.g., diplomatic missions).

[71 FR 20537, Apr. 21, 2006]


22 CFR 120.15 - U.S. person

§ 120.15 U.S. person.
U.S. person means a person (as defined in § 120.14 of this part) who is a lawful permanent resident as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(20) or who is a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3). It also means any corporation, business association, partnership, society, trust, or any other entity, organization or group that is incorporated to do business in the United States. It also includes any governmental (federal, state or local) entity. It does not include any foreign person as defined in § 120.16 of this part.

[71 FR 20537, Apr. 21, 2006]

foreign person 和 foreign nationals 的定义最大区别就是绿卡。 绿卡本身是后者不是前者。

然后NRA是典型的混淆了两者。

而且一些州(包括楼主在的华盛顿州)是给所有alien (即foreign person) 持枪许可的。。。 你所在州的相关法律很重要。
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发表于 2016-5-25 06:42 | 只看该作者
oskarlre 发表于 2016-5-25 06:06
自己教的问题在于人家用ITAR捏你你是否愿意花时间金钱对抗。 然后还可能吃牢饭。  ...

你先给个明确的foreign person的定义。
我的理解跟foreign person相对应的是us person,这个应该是包括绿卡的。
至于f1,h1嘛,俺本来就不碰。俺自己都是等到办完绿卡才开始的。
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发表于 2016-5-25 06:06 | 只看该作者
alex 发表于 2016-5-23 13:04
咱自己教。。。。

自己教的问题在于人家用ITAR捏你你是否愿意花时间金钱对抗。 然后还可能吃牢饭。 
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37#
发表于 2016-5-25 06:04 | 只看该作者
我去查了华盛顿州的规定。 只能说是哪个靶场自身政策。 

这里是华盛顿州的相关法律(RCW 9.41.173)绿卡乃至非绿卡上课都是可以的(州法层面)用词是广义的 alien 而不是特定词

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.173



RCW 9.41.173



Alien possession of firearms—Alien firearm license—Political subdivisions may not modify requirements—Penalty for false statement.


(1) In order to obtain an alien firearm license, a nonimmigrant alien residing in Washington must apply to the sheriff of the county in which he or she resides.

(2) The sheriff of the county shall within sixty days after the filing of an application of a nonimmigrant alien residing in the state of Washington, issue an alien firearm license to such person to carry or possess a firearm for the purposes of hunting and sport shooting. The license shall be good for two years. The issuing authority shall not refuse to accept completed applications for alien firearm licenses during regular business hours. An application for a license may not be denied, unless the applicant's alien firearm license is in a revoked status, or the applicant:

(a) Is ineligible to possess a firearm under the provisions of RCW 9.41.040 or 9.41.045;

(b) Is subject to a court order or injunction regarding firearms pursuant to RCW 9A.46.080, 10.14.080, 10.99.040, 10.99.045, 26.09.050, 26.09.060, 26.10.040, 26.10.115, 26.26.130, 26.50.060, 26.50.070, or 26.26.590;

(c) Is free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a felony offense; or

(d) Has an outstanding warrant for his or her arrest from any court of competent jurisdiction for a felony or misdemeanor.

No license application shall be granted to a nonimmigrant alien convicted of a felony unless the person has been granted relief from disabilities by the attorney general under 18 U.S.C. Sec. 925(c), or unless RCW 9.41.040 (3) or (4) applies.

(3) The sheriff shall check with the national crime information center, the Washington state patrol electronic database, the department of social and health services electronic database, and with other agencies or resources as appropriate, to determine whether the applicant is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 or 9.41.045 to possess a firearm.

(4) The license application shall bear the full name, residential address, telephone number at the option of the applicant, date and place of birth, race, gender, description, not more than two complete sets of fingerprints, and signature of the applicant, a copy of the applicant's passport and visa showing the applicant is in the country legally, and a valid Washington hunting license or documentation that the applicant is a member of a sport shooting club.

A signed application for an alien firearm license shall constitute a waiver of confidentiality and written request that the department of social and health services, mental health institutions, and other health care facilities release information relevant to the applicant's eligibility for an alien firearm license to an inquiring court or law enforcement agency.

The application for an original license shall include a complete set of fingerprints to be forwarded to the Washington state patrol.

The license and application shall contain a warning substantially as follows:

CAUTION: Although state and local laws do not differ, federal law and state law on the possession of firearms differ. If you are prohibited by federal law from possessing a firearm, you may be prosecuted in federal court. A state license is not a defense to a federal prosecution.

The license shall contain a description of the major differences between state and federal law and an explanation of the fact that local laws and ordinances on firearms are preempted by state law and must be consistent with state law. The application shall contain questions about the applicant's eligibility under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm. The nonimmigrant alien applicant shall be required to produce a passport and visa as evidence of being in the country legally.

The license may be in triplicate or in a form to be prescribed by the department of licensing. The original thereof shall be delivered to the licensee, the duplicate shall within seven days be sent to the director of licensing and the triplicate shall be preserved for six years, by the authority issuing the license.

The department of licensing shall make available to law enforcement and corrections agencies, in an online format, all information received under this section.

(5) The sheriff has the authority to collect a nonrefundable fee, paid upon application, for the two-year license. The fee shall be fifty dollars plus additional charges imposed by the Washington state patrol and the federal bureau of investigation that are passed on to the applicant. No other state or local branch or unit of government may impose any additional charges on the applicant for the issuance of the license. The fee shall be retained by the sheriff.

(6) Payment shall be by cash, check, or money order at the option of the applicant. Additional methods of payment may be allowed at the option of the sheriff.

(7) A political subdivision of the state shall not modify the requirements of this section, nor may a political subdivision ask the applicant to voluntarily submit any information not required by this section.

(8) A person who knowingly makes a false statement regarding citizenship or identity on an application for an alien firearm license is guilty of false swearing under RCW 9A.72.040. In addition to any other penalty provided for by law, the alien firearm license of a person who knowingly makes a false statement shall be revoked, and the person shall be permanently ineligible for an alien firearm license.
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36#
发表于 2016-5-25 05:59 | 只看该作者
doublepar 发表于 2016-5-25 05:50
US Person 的定义:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.15

这个定义我知道, 问题就在于这两点的冲突。

一方面美国联邦到地方都允许foreign person 的枪支购买和申请猎照,子弹,复装机械等更是没有regulation, 另一方面ITAR则认为这种只要不和DOS注册审批这些东西都是违法, 那么现在问题就来了:

美国联邦到地方county sheriff 和DOS注册并得到审批了么? 显然没有。。。 而这种许可后foreign person 去买后读读说明书其实都是理论的 felony, 这就造成了各种混乱。

这也就造成了H类,F类,J类签证一方面可以通过HL“合法”持枪,为了赚钱,做B类签证的旅游者靶场不要太多 一方面给允许他们合法持枪的政府,购买枪支的 dealer,做基础安全培训的靶场啥的理论上都是重罪的讽刺情况。。。

为了避嫌,很多人刻意不做非公民的生意也可以理解, 但是却是我们枪友会教官躲不过去的。
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发表于 2016-5-25 05:50 | 只看该作者
oskarlre 发表于 2016-5-25 05:40
NRA 他们自己都拎不清其实

看他们的规定

US Person 的定义:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.15

各个部门都是一桶浆糊。
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发表于 2016-5-25 05:40 | 只看该作者
doublepar 发表于 2016-5-25 05:27
我给 NRA 的 Training Department 打过电话,他们说公民和绿卡都行。
其实 ITAR 里的“US persons”不但包 ...

NRA 他们自己都拎不清其实

看他们的规定

• NRA CANNOT PROVIDE ANY ASSISTANCE IN TRAINING FOREIGN PERSONS DUE TO CONFLICTING INFORMATION FROM THE U.S. GOVERNMENT REGARDING REGULATIONS PERTINENT TO FOREIGN PERSONS AND ARMS TRAINING. NRA CANNOT PROCESS ANY REQUESTS FOR ASSISTANCE IN TRAINING FOREIGN PERSONS. IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE, WE REGRET TO INFORM YOU THAT NRA CANNOT (ISSUE OR) RENEW NRA FIREARM TRAINER CREDENTIALS FOR ANY FOREIGN NATIONAL.

绿卡本身就是 FOREIGN NATIONAL。。。  至于 FOREIGN PERSONS, F1,H1b, J1都是,但是这些人在美国只要有HL都是合法持枪。。。 这样其实把美国各级政府(从联邦到地方)都搞成了ITAR的最大违反方。

我做research 的结果是DOS自己也是一塌糊涂。 他们的Policy review team 的回答在这里:



所以就是各种SB。。。 我回头request 一个 opinion letter 好了。
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发表于 2016-5-25 05:27 | 只看该作者
我给 NRA 的 Training Department 打过电话,他们说公民和绿卡都行。
其实 ITAR 里的“US persons”不但包括绿卡,还包括难民,但拿签证的非移民不在内。这些细节要一般靶场的红脖搞清,有些为难。
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发表于 2016-5-25 05:12 | 只看该作者
happydad 发表于 2016-5-24 23:41
也许只是个别红脖教官的个人选择,加州的NRA教官课只要绿卡就可以上。

这可不是个别,而是NRA 的 legal stand, 换句话说,你上了人家不给证书,和反诉你刻意违法都可以。 搞不好连带着给上课的 counselor 也会倒霉。 我这边的 counselor 因为这个 stand 不要 NRA一分钱开自己的射击学校,就是为了先不被NRA当牺牲品。 可以预见很长时间内我们和NRA是斗争合作关系  
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