科罗拉多州不允许任何老师佩枪

TFollowerII

加州那个是个赢。这个是个输。

Poll显示，科罗拉多州50%支持学校老师佩枪（45%反对）

共和党提案：（不是说必须要求老师持枪，而是）学校可以制定政策来允许有合法持枪证的学校员工带枪上班

民主党毙掉了这个提案。他们认为，保证安全应该是佩枪的警员，而不是老师。

Dems kill measure to allow teachers to carry concealed guns in class



DENVER - Democrats just said "no" to allowing teachers to carry concealed weapons in school.

After a marathon 6 hour public hearing, the House Judiciary Committee defeated HB 14-1157 on a 7 - 4 party line vote.

The sponsor, Rep. Stephen Humphrey, R-Weld County, said his bill didn't mandate that teachers be allowed to carry concealed weapons, rather it would have authorized school boards to develop policies that would allow employees to carry a concealed weapons on school grounds, if they hold a valid permit.

There was emotional testimony on both sides.

Karina Vargas, the survivor of a drive by shooting in front of Aurora Central High School in 2010 testified against the bill.

"One moment I was standing there talking to my friends, the next moment I was unable to move," Vargas said. "If a teacher was there with a gun not knowing who was responsible for the shooting, there could easily have been more injuries or fatalities."

Steve Reams was also caught in the crossfire of a shooting at his school in Amarillo, TX in 1993.

"I did not get shot," he said, "but only by the grace of God."

Reams, now a bureau chief at the Weld County Sheriff's Office, testified in favor of Humphrey's bill saying that if a gunman enters a school, time is of the essence.

"Unless an officer is right there on school grounds when an incident breaks out, the likelihood of getting there in time to help the kids is quite difficult."

"I don't think it's a good idea," said East High student Dylan Salzman. "I think it will distract from the learning environment."

Salzman told 7NEWS that if guns are allowed in the classroom, there would be an increased chance of someone getting hurt accidentally.

Jeff Lemons, an IT specialist and security officer at Frontier Academy charter school, told lawmakers that under current law he's not allowed to carry a gun on campus.

"If a shooting or some kind of armed incident happens at our school," he said, "I will be running to that danger. I currently cannot protect myself adequately because I'm not a (public school) district employee."

Lemons asked the committee to change the law.

Lawmakers amended Humphrey's bill to include charter school security officers, but the committee then defeated the overall bill.

Committee Chairman Daniel Kagen said, "It's bad policy to allow guns in the classroom."

After the measure was voted down, Kagen adjourned the committee before holding another vote to postpone the measure indefinitely.

He tried to reconvene the committee, but Republicans told him it was already adjourned.

That means there is still a slight chance that the amended bill could be brought up again later in the session.

The hearing followed a recent Quinnipiac University Poll which showed Coloradans favor arming teachers by a 50 - 45 margin.

The poll of 1,139 voters was conducted from Jan. 29 to Feb. 2 and had a margin of error of 2.9 percent.

Democrats say school security should be left to armed officers, not teachers.

gzanta

个人感觉没啥很大是大非的，与其让老师配枪，不如给学校雇佣一个受过专业训练的配枪警卫。

bingmickey

gzanta 发表于 2014-2-13 13:52
个人感觉没啥很大是大非的，与其让老师配枪，不如给学校雇佣一个受过专业训练的配枪警卫。 ...

雇警卫不是要花钱吗，老师配枪不需要多付钱就把这事解决了，是个更便宜的方案
国内骂美国的文章有一点说的对，美国两党现在越来越多的为了反对而反对，把政党意气置于社会利益之上。

TFollowerII

gzanta 发表于 2014-2-13 13:52
个人感觉没啥很大是大非的，与其让老师配枪，不如给学校雇佣一个受过专业训练的配枪警卫。 ...

我的感觉和你的不同。

这个议案不是说一定让，而是允许学校（当然学校可以选择不）制定程序，如果有老师愿意，又有持枪证，那么可以带枪上班。

而民主党的意见是，即便学校选择这么干，那么也不允许。即，不允许学校老师用枪保护学校。安全只应该由警察部队来完成。

这和拥枪禁枪的思想的冲突是同出一辙的。

拥枪是说，国家有程序。如果公民愿意，那么公民可以选择走这个程序来拥有枪支保护自己。

禁枪是说，即便公民选择这么做，那么也不允许国家有这个程序。即，不允许公民用枪保护自己。安全只应该由警察部队来完成。

happyfrog

TFollowerII 发表于 2014-2-13 14:14
我的感觉和你的不同。

这个议案不是说一定让，而是允许学校（当然学校可以选择不）制定程序，如果有老师 ...

+1

Londy

允許老師帶槍去學校和雇用專業配槍警衛應該算二回事..

簡單說，因為有警察所以人民就不需要有槍嗎? 另一說即然有公車，就不需要有私家車?

Laou168

As a parent, I do not want my kids to sit in classrooms and listen to teachers with guns hidding somewhere on them.

I am afraid that there would be more shootings of students by teachers than by criminals if teachers were allowed to carry guns in classrooms. I simply do not trust teachers for gun handling and their own mental well beings.

There should be other better ways to protect students  than allowing teachers to carry guns at schools.

coflyer

共和党的提案，能在科州通过， 才是怪事.

目前科州府院均完全被荔波肉控制, 大家都在摩拳擦掌等年底大选

kk58

加州这事想都不要想

lalirui

kk58 发表于 2014-2-13 15:20
加州这事想都不要想

gzanta

TFollowerII 发表于 2014-2-13 14:14
我的感觉和你的不同。

这个议案不是说一定让，而是允许学校（当然学校可以选择不）制定程序，如果有老师 ...

你是否愿意自己的孩子坐在一个持枪的老师的课堂上？我是会有疑虑的。虽然我自己也有枪。
我并非不理解你的意思，只是学校和影院毕竟不一样。
保护自己和学校里有一个持枪警卫，在一定程度上是一致的。
在这个问题上，我更倾向于雇佣警卫。
学校的警卫和警察也是两个概念，所以安全只能有警察部队完成这一说，我觉得也并不很成立。

gzanta

Laou168 发表于 2014-2-13 14:43
As a parent, I do not want my kids to sit in classrooms and listen to teachers with guns hidding som ...

同意第一句和最后一句，但是中间一句我觉得没有坚实的论据支持。

Laou168

gzanta 发表于 2014-2-13 17:57
同意第一句和最后一句，但是中间一句我觉得没有坚实的论据支持。

We do not have statistics. The shear number of teaches with guns is already scary. Students are most kids who do not have means to defend themselves if a teacher goes to have a killing spree.

TFollowerII

gzanta 发表于 2014-2-13 17:55
你是否愿意自己的孩子坐在一个持枪的老师的课堂上？我是会有疑虑的。虽然我自己也有枪。
我并非不理解你 ...

我会有疑虑。因为这是一个uncharted territory。这样的疑虑总会有的。

但是我的理智在考虑了这些极端的情况后，还是更偏向通过法案：
(个人看法)

如果	目前的情况	允许老师有枪的情况
如果有枪的坏人来学校	学校的策略是hide，be quiet，close door。等待较慢到来的警察。	好人能有枪增加了孩子存活的机率。警察的因素和目前的情况是一样的。
如果老师变成坏人	坏老师今天也可以拿把枪到学校来胡杀一通，没有人能够制止，只有较慢到来的警察。	不会阻止坏老师把枪带进来。但是好人能有枪增加了有人能够制止坏老师的机率。
如果坏小子把老师的枪偷到手	坏小子在学校是偷不到枪的，只能在学校外面偷，比如偷他/她爸妈的。	坏小子的确增加了能偷到枪的可能。但是如果CCW的老师能够认真执行以安全可靠储藏枪支为荣，以不计后果随处乱放为耻，那么坏小子偷到枪的可能可以进一步变小。
如果老师的枪走火	没有这个风险。因为目前不让老师有枪。	老师如果八荣八耻执行地好的话，这个风险应该可以控制。

所以，我认为，学校制定合理安全的程序，在老师自愿的前提下，挑选多个仔细的，靠得住的老师有枪，还是比目前的好人无枪的策略是有优势的。

学校的校长、老师们总体上还是可以信得过的。（这是最关键的premise：在任何时间即便有癌变的细胞，但是大多数还是健康细胞）我相信他们不会拿自己和孩子的生命开玩笑。如果他们不感到comfortable来制定合理安全的程序，那么他们会选择不制定这样的程序。那么他们的学校还是今天的情况。而对于愿意主动一些的学校，这个法案赋予了他们更多的选择。

bingmickey

gzanta 发表于 2014-2-13 17:55
你是否愿意自己的孩子坐在一个持枪的老师的课堂上？我是会有疑虑的。虽然我自己也有枪。
我并非不理解你 ...

学校的老师和雇佣的保安哪个更值得你信任，这个会有不同的答案
从防范的角度讲，这两种方式应该都好于现在这种什么都不做的情况，为什么政府选择什么都不做？
无非就是选择雇保安，没钱，我听人说过政府雇佣一个保安大约10-20万一年，学校估计也少不了多少，允许老师兼顾防范，民主党认为这是利于拥枪的选择，违反党派利益，是坚决不会同意的。孩子们的安全呢，只好不管了

seal1789

可惜，如果老师可以携枪，有的枪杀案可能根本不会发生(歹徒不敢），或者一发生就被很快制止。其实不必担心老师因此自己会制造枪杀案。因为若老师真想这样搞枪杀，不管禁不禁枪都一样搞了，禁枪还对他/她更有利。