ITAR 问题对非移民的影响

lelexiao12

Zn2011 发表于 2017-12-2 20:32
any deal on AK?

550的wasr算吗

Zn2011

lelexiao12 发表于 2017-12-3 02:37
550的wasr算吗

not bad hehe

Kee

我觉得这个问题很好理解啊。

ITAR只有在出口的时候才有合法性的问题，留学生也可以买ITAR，只要不出口，完全没问题。

主要问题出在店家卖不卖你ITAR，他设置了比ITAR更严格的条例不卖你那你也没办法。
像OP提前出了自己的免责声明，并且要求你是US person，那这个不是ITAR的要求而是他自己为了保全自己出的条例。虽然这个条例不一定跟ITAR一致，管的更宽，但是还是得按照人家的条例来买。人家不卖你留学生那也就没办法。
I am a U.S. Person as defined by ITAR § 120.15
像这个，OP他不管你出不出口，人家只管你是不是US person，从源头解决可能的问题。虽然是 “非US person”但是“不出口”从ITAR的角度是没问题的，但是OP觉得只要你有潜在的违法可能性他就不想冒着个险。虽然OP可能少卖一点但是人家不care，可以免除不必要的麻烦。

我ACOG在AU买的就没有这个条例，所以可以放心买。

lelexiao12

Kee 发表于 2017-12-3 09:40
我觉得这个问题很好理解啊。

ITAR只有在出口的时候才有合法性的问题，留学生也可以买ITAR，只要不出口，完 ...

ITAR有出售给forgein person等同出口的条款。

exoto

lelexiao12 发表于 2017-12-3 09:45
ITAR有出售给forgein person等同出口的条款。

对，所以我觉得非移民玩枪挺灰色的，千万不能高调。不过目前好像还没有玩枪留学生被itar搞的报道，真执法严格以后没准就会出事了

exoto

Kee 发表于 2017-12-3 07:40
我觉得这个问题很好理解啊。

ITAR只有在出口的时候才有合法性的问题，留学生也可以买ITAR，只要不出口，完 ...

ITAR的规定是卖给非移民等同出口。
如果seller说这是ITAR然后你作为非移民签署协议claim自己是US person，这一行为也是违法。真要追究责任是逃不了的
尤其ITAR现在对多数军用手枪，步枪，霰弹枪，各种弹药等都有管制，我估计以后执法强硬起来非移民的持枪权会大大减少

exoto

lelexiao12 发表于 2017-12-2 12:49
这个ITAR是DOS的规定，只管乙方不管甲方，甲方得持有是ATF管的，买了的只要是合法持有没问题，只不过严格 ...

也不完全是，也有因为虚假claim自己是us person被起诉的案例

Kee

lelexiao12 发表于 2017-12-3 09:45
ITAR有出售给forgein person等同出口的条款。

求指出信息来源。我问当地的dealer是说我这种身份也可以买ITAR只要不出口就行。

Kee

exoto 发表于 2017-12-3 10:37
ITAR的规定是卖给非移民等同出口。
如果seller说这是ITAR然后你作为非移民签署协议claim自己是US person， ...

求指出信息来源。我问当地的dealer是说我这种身份也可以买ITAR只要不出口就行。

XOXOBOB

出口的定义是关键。
120.17   Export.
(a) Except as set forth in §126.16 or §126.17, export means:

(1) An actual shipment or transmission out of the United States, including the sending or taking of a defense article out of the United States in any manner;

(2) Releasing or otherwise transferring technical data to a foreign person in the United States (a “deemed export”);

(3) Transferring registration, control, or ownership of any aircraft, vessel, or satellite subject to the ITAR by a U.S. person to a foreign person;

(4) Releasing or otherwise transferring a defense article to an embassy or to any of its agencies or subdivisions, such as a diplomatic mission or consulate, in the United States;

(5) Performing a defense service on behalf of, or for the benefit of, a foreign person, whether in the United States or abroad; or

(6) A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this subchapter. However, for certain limited purposes (see §126.1 of this subchapter), the controls of this subchapter may apply to any sale, transfer or proposal to sell or transfer defense articles or defense services.

(b) Any release in the United States of technical data to a foreign person is deemed to be an export to all countries in which the foreign person has held or holds citizenship or holds permanent residency.

exoto

Kee 发表于 2017-12-3 07:40
我觉得这个问题很好理解啊。

ITAR只有在出口的时候才有合法性的问题，留学生也可以买ITAR，只要不出口，完 ...

我应该花点时间好好看看https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar.html
目前还没在政府官网的条纹里看见买卖给非移民的管制条例，不过几乎所有商家都会在交易ITAR item的时候提到这个legal statement

The Customer below (i)
certifies that the Customer is a U.S. Person as def
ined by ITAR § 120.15
, meaning the Customer is a lawful
permanent resident of the United States, as defined
by 8 U.S.C. § 1101(a)(20), or is a protected indiv
idual as defined by 8 U.S.C. § 1324b(a)(3),
or is a corporation, business association, partners
hip, society, trust, or any other entity, organizat
ion or group that is incorporated to do business
in the United States, or is a governmental (federal
, state, or local) entity.
3.
U.S. law prohibits the sale, transfer, or export
of items to certain restricted parties and destina
tions, as identified on lists maintained by the U.S
.
Department of State, the U.S. Department of Commerc
e, and the U.S. Department of Treasury. It is the
responsibility of the Customer to be
aware of these lists, which can be found at the abo
ve listed U.S. Government websites. The Customer i
dentified below certifies that it will not
knowingly engage in any unauthorized transaction in
volving the export of OpticsPlanet products to any
restricted parties or destinations.

而且实际上，ITAR确实有执行的情况，比如gen III的夜视仪以及很多尖端军用仪器，非移民购买就是会被追究责任的，比如购买这些物品的时候，OP要求上传绿卡或美国护照copy。所以我不怀疑OP这种说法（必须自己claim US person才可以交易，否则不卖）
ITAR其实管制了任何军用相关的firearm，optics，零配件（包括AR的弹夹），所以影响面很大，我觉得至少在未来几年开始执行的时候会对非移民产生深远影响。
但是有两个问题至少我没搞明白，一个是已经持有的会怎么处理，第二个是怎么具体细分一个东西到底是不是ITAR。。比如自己组装的AR也是ITAR吗？

exoto

现在来看，除了genIII夜视仪这种东西，至少执行还不严格，但是这个风险值不值得冒还是个问号。time will tell

lelexiao12

Kee 发表于 2017-12-3 16:03
求指出信息来源。我问当地的dealer是说我这种身份也可以买ITAR只要不出口就行。
...

参见ITAR §120.16

lelexiao12

exoto 发表于 2017-12-3 16:51
我应该花点时间好好看看https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar.html
目前还没在政府官网的 ...

这个表绝对不能签，签了买问题很严重。参见USML 的catalog 部分，已经持有的部分，请查阅美国是否起诉过伊朗持有F16。

exoto

lelexiao12 发表于 2017-12-3 15:04
参见USML 的catalog 部分，已经持有的部分，请查阅美国是否起诉过伊朗持有F16。
...

起诉外国政府。。和起诉一个小小的非移民有很大区别吧

ps，对，要签表的我一概cancel order

exoto

我觉得现在应该开始在论坛里讨论ITAR的问题了，我相信很快ITAR就会广泛推广产生法律效应，希望不要有一天购买子弹都要签署协议。。这样非移民基本可以和持枪说拜拜了

brownstone

老哥你吓得我赶紧去翻了翻法律原文

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.17

§ 120.17 Export.
(a) Except as set forth in § 126.16 or § 126.17, export means:

(1) An actual shipment or transmission out of the United States, including the sending or taking of a defense article out of the United States in any manner;
以任何方式把枪和其他defensive ariticle带出美国肯定是不合法的，这个凭感觉也知道不太对。那么什么是defensive article，回帖会附上

(2) Releasing or otherwise transferring technical data to a foreign person in the United States (a “deemed export”);

把technical data泄露或者转让给在美外国人等同于出口，但是凭感觉也知道枪支子弹不太像是technical data，那么什么是technical data，回帖会附上

(3) Transferring registration, control, or ownership of any aircraft, vessel, or satellite subject to the ITAR by a U.S. person to a foreign person;

只要不放卫星，不上九天揽月，不下五洋捉鳖，应该也没事

(4) Releasing or otherwise transferring adefense article to an embassy or to any of its agencies or subdivisions, such as a diplomatic mission or consulate, in the United States;

不把defensive article转给美外国使领馆，应该也没事，夜闯外国领馆在哪个国家都不是好事

(5) Performing a defense service on behalf of, or for the benefit of, a foreign person, whether in the United States or abroad; or

defensive service这个比较tricky，里面列了三条，其中第二条是涉及数据的，第三条是涉及军事训练的，这个都无关。最主要的是其中定义的第一条
(1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles;
这里面最tricky的就是assistance和training是如何定义的，卖枪算不算？提供枪支安全培训算不算？提供靶场算不算？这个才是真正的灰色地带，如果真的有这种案子，上了法庭可能就看法官的嘴皮子和良心了。

可能以后外国人有猎证可以合法持枪，但是可能买不到枪，没法上枪课，也没法改枪修枪，没法去靶场打枪。

最坏的一种可能是，这个新修订的法律prevail之前的法律，那么外国人就无法完全无法合法持枪了。如果连猎证培训也算是defensive service的话，那么外国人连猎证也无法获得了，没有猎证也就无法持枪。


(6) A launch vehicle or payload shall not, by reason of the launching of such vehicle, be considered an export for purposes of this subchapter. However, for certain limited purposes (see § 126.1 of this subchapter), the controls of this subchapter may apply to any sale, transfer or proposal to sell or transfer defense articles or defense services.

launch vehicle，发射火箭，咋不上天呢。

(b) Any release in the United States of technical data to a foreign person is deemed to be an export to all countries in which the foreign person has held or holds citizenship or holds permanent residency.

这个跟(a)(2)条款说的是一个事情，把technical data泄露或者转让给在美外国人等同于出口

[ 81 FR 35616, June 3, 2016]

以上只是个人观点，不代表任何法律意见，仅供参考

brownstone

什么是defensive article

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.6

§ 120.6 Defense article.
Defense article means any item or technical data designated in § 121.1 of this subchapter. The policy described in § 120.3 is applicable to designations of additional items. This term includes technical data recorded or stored in any physical form, models, mockups or other items that reveal technical data directly relating to items designated in § 121.1 of this subchapter. It also includes forgings, castings, and other unfinished products, such as extrusions and machined bodies, that have reached a stage in manufacturing where they are clearly identifiable by mechanical properties, material composition, geometry, or function as defense articles. It does not include basic marketing information on function or purpose or general system descriptions.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/121.1

§ 121.1列了一堆禁运清单，各种口径的长枪短炮，军用级别瞄准镜，消音管等等等等
Category I - Firearms, Close Assault Weapons and Combat Shotguns

* (a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).

* (b) Fully automatic firearms to .50 caliber inclusive (12.7 mm).

* (c) Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-counterinsurgency, close assault weapons systems) having a special military application regardless of caliber.

* (d) Combat shotguns. This includes any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches.

* (e) Silencers, mufflers, sound and flash suppressors for the articles in (a) through (d) of this category and their specifically designed, modified or adapted components and parts.

(f) Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications (See category XII(c) for controls on night sighting devices.)

* (g) Barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames) or complete breech mechanisms for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this category.

(h) Components, parts, accessories and attachments for the articles in paragraphs (a) through (g) of this category.

(i) Technical data (as defined in § 120.10 of this subchapter) and defense services (as defined in § 120.9 of this subchapter) directly related to the defense articles described in paragraphs (a) through (h) of this category. Technical data directly related to the manufacture or production of any defense articles described elsewhere in this category that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be designated SME.

(j) The following interpretations explain and amplify the terms used in this category and throughout this subchapter:

(1) A firearm is a weapon not over .50 caliber (12.7 mm) which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or which may be readily converted to do so.

(2) A rifle is a shoulder firearm which can discharge a bullet through a rifled barrel 16 inches or longer.

(3) A carbine is a lightweight shoulder firearm with a barrel under 16 inches in length.

(4) A pistol is a hand-operated firearm having a chamber integral with or permanently aligned with the bore.

(5) A revolver is a hand-operated firearm with a revolving cylinder containing chambers for individual cartridges.

(6) A submachine gun, “machine pistol” or “machine gun” is a firearm originally designed to fire, or capable of being fired, fully automatically by a single pull of the trigger.

brownstone

什么是techinical data

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.10

§ 120.10 Technical data.
(a)Technical data means, for purposes of this subchapter:

(1) Information, other than software as defined in § 120.10(a)(4), which is required for the design, development, production, manufacture, assembly, operation, repair, testing, maintenance or modification of defense articles. This includes information in the form of blueprints, drawings, photographs, plans, instructions or documentation.

(2) Classified information relating to defense articles and defense services on the U.S. Munitions List and 600-series items controlled by the Commerce Control List;

(3) Information covered by an invention secrecy order; or

(4) Software (see § 120.45(f)) directly related to defense articles.

(b) The definition in paragraph (a) of this section does not include information concerning general scientific, mathematical, or engineering principles commonly taught in schools, colleges, and universities, or information in the public domain as defined in § 120.11 of this subchapter or telemetry data as defined in note 3 to Category XV(f) of part 121 of this subchapter. It also does not include basic marketing information on function or purpose or general system descriptions of defense articles.

[ 58 FR 39283, July 22, 1993, as amended at 61 FR 48831, Sept. 17, 1996; 71 FR 20537, Apr. 21, 2006; 78 FR 22754, Apr. 16, 2013; 78 FR 61754, Oct. 3, 2013; 79 FR 61227, Oct. 10, 2014; 79 FR 27185, May 13, 2014]

brownstone

什么是defensive service

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/120.9

§ 120.9 Defense service.
(a)Defense service means:

(1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing or use of defense articles;

(2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled under this subchapter (see § 120.10), whether in the United States or abroad; or

(3) Military training of foreign units and forces, regular and irregular, including formal or informal instruction of foreign persons in the United States or abroad or by correspondence courses, technical, educational, or information publications and media of all kinds, training aid, orientation, training exercise, and military advice. (See also § 124.1.)

(b) [Reserved]

[ 62 FR 67275, Dec. 24, 1997]