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拥枪派也需要认真考虑禁枪派的逻辑

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发表于 2015-12-22 16:37 | 只看该作者
QuiMi 发表于 2015-12-21 19:12
你的论点 "枪支相对于其它器物,比如汽车,能够更容易地杀死更多的人" 是一个想当然,没有任何根据。一辆汽 ...

"更不用说枪是反抗政府暴政的最后防线。"说得好,这才是2A的真正目的,防止权贵垄断三权,滥用政府实施管理的功能鱼肉杀戮中产。所有中外古今共匪,教匪当权的国家都全面禁枪禁刀,从秦王八蛋开始,为什么?






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发表于 2015-12-22 16:40 | 只看该作者
其实大家还是要把讨论的焦点弄清楚。

个人认为所谓的“拥枪派”是鼓吹平民拥有火器的权利,也就是2A;而“禁枪派”其实相对复杂的多,从鼓吹对持有枪支设定前置条件/限制枪支的购买/彻底禁绝平民持枪权利……等等不一而足。

在这一点上,至少禁枪派中“持有枪支需要通过一定水平的安全考试/简单的背景调查”的观点我还是支持的。再往左走,估计我就要投反对票了。

至于全面的禁枪,我觉得不仅不现实,而且完全丧失了理智,跟建设共产主义伟大理想可以放到一类里头去。而无条件可以拥有任何武器也跟彻底的无政府主义没啥大的区别。

所以,某共说的,团结一切可以团结的力量从策略上说还是有一定道理的。适度支持对拥枪一点小小的约束不一定会是对“拥枪派”不利的行为。

管窥之见。
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发表于 2015-12-22 17:09 | 只看该作者
安东尼奥 发表于 2015-12-22 09:26
我个人观点是禁是不可能的,但是枪械管理的确应该更严格一些。比如private sale应该强制背景调查,80%lower ...

"但是2A在美国这个已经高度文明的国家是不再适用  "

去年的事,BUNNY RANCH 一家50条人命,没被150个拿着AR的BROWN SHIRT BOYS灭掉,靠哪位官员,议员,或法官?关键时刻都是狗驶,只有2A赋予的500条民兵的武装才拯救了BUNNY一家,拯救了美国的民主自由。里根说过,Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction。不过这小子没说谁是自由最大的威胁,跟共产党似的,说话永远只说半句真的,比如说阶级斗争是真的,谁是统治阶级,谁是被统治阶级就是呼悠了。里更好像在拿苏联开涮,去年苏联不在了吧?从来都是,权贵寡头,是自由最大威胁。中产阶级靠啥保命保自由?只靠选票?BUNNY RANCH拿50条命,换50个MILLION的合同的事都可以做。几张破纸的事,还没办法?鸡国选举的经验可以接轨。一家出两代三总统(计划还没完成),一家出两口子总统,还不是和鸡国一回事,旧衬衣传给月月鸟,JB是硬道理。美国的民主自由,也就是50步的水平。不看清楚点,准备好(例如韩国汉子),就被卖了。

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发表于 2015-12-22 17:27 | 只看该作者
"但是2A在美国这个已经高度文明的国家是不再适用"

有人知法犯法還可以出來選總統,這是高度文明了?
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发表于 2015-12-22 17:41 | 只看该作者
jerseyv 发表于 2015-12-22 17:27
"但是2A在美国这个已经高度文明的国家是不再适用"

有人知法犯法還可以出來選總統,這是高度文明了? ...

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
Henry Kissinger

罪犯都在前三排,根子都在主席台。中产自己没党说个..



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发表于 2015-12-22 17:43 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 brucewayne 于 2015-12-23 10:48 编辑
Snowbird 发表于 2015-12-22 17:47
你的观点太极端了:交通工具和杀人工具都是工具,工具无责,人有责。

当然,作为“拥枪派”坚定成员,我 ...

我的立场是在政府不能保证我不受“任何恶意伤害”以及不能最大化利用现有控枪法案(或证明法律有效)的前提下,不增加任何控枪法律。我并不是要求摒弃一切枪法,只是不再增加对良民无谓的限制罢了。


我支持是人的责任的观点,但是目前没有利用到现有的控枪法律和措施的效果,继续加强法律没有更大意义。

我的观点是禁枪派会利用你们温和控枪派的理论蚕食合法拥枪者的权利。

药物来说抗生素和毒品都可用于医疗,只是一般人不能接触到,并没有完全禁止。但即使这样还有很多人呼吁大麻合法化。同时也要看到法律禁止也没法清除街上的毒品的。

我不想费太大的精力辩论这个话题,一个是因为大家都是拥枪派,另一个是禁枪派的目的不在于控黑枪,而是减少合法百姓手中的枪


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发表于 2015-12-22 17:48 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 PTL21 于 2015-12-22 17:49 编辑

放这里,这是宪法给的权力,不是特权.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONqcBKhikfk
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发表于 2015-12-22 19:14 | 只看该作者
PTL21 发表于 2015-12-22 17:48
放这里,这是宪法给的权力,不是特权.

視頻不錯,其實看看founding father們對槍的評價,只要有政府存在,2A就沒有過時一說

"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, January 30, 1787

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

“A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms…  "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England, 1803

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like law, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The balance ofpower is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside. And while a single nation refuses to lay them down, it is proper that all should keep them up. Horrid mischief would ensue were one-half the world deprived of the use of them; for while avarice and ambition have a place in the heart of man, the weak will become a prey to the strong. The history of every age and nation establishes these truths, and facts need but little arguments when they prove themselves."
- Thomas Paine, "Thoughts on Defensive War" in Pennsylvania Magazine, July 1775

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, 1833

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, I Annals of Congress 750, August 17, 1789

"For it is a truth, which the experience of ages has attested, that the people are always most in danger when the means of injuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 25, December 21, 1787


"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28

"[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
- Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789


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参与人数 1子弹 +10 收起 理由
PTL21 + 10 很给力!

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发表于 2015-12-22 20:13 | 只看该作者
TopHuang 发表于 2015-12-22 09:47
简单,如果禁枪了,如果合法公民被任何枪支伤害,州长下台,总统辞职,你看看还有政客喊禁枪
...

现在民主制度中不完善的一点就是,政客只要选上了,提出一个方案后,管不管用都能拍拍屁股走人,过几年换个马甲又来了,把屁民玩弄于股掌之中,没有相应的追责制度。
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发表于 2015-12-22 20:28 | 只看该作者
守法、正常的人民拥枪的权利不可侵犯!没有可以讨论的余地。要讨论就是要蚕食人民的权利。

罪犯不守法,不能拥枪。
恐怖分子不属于人民,不能拥枪。如何界定恐怖分子是另外一个问题。
精神病患者不正常,不能拥枪。当然也有一个如何界定精神病的问题。

不存在黑枪百枪的问题。不能拥枪的人有白枪也不行。正常守法的人民如果拥有黑枪,和走私盗窃有何区别,所就是不守法了。

所以关键是人不是枪。

实战证明全自动并不比半自动更具杀伤力。禁全自动是蚕食人民权利,限制弹匣更是。

炸弹、导弹、坦克、大炮,不在拥枪禁枪讨论之列,拿来为禁枪站台,是别有用心。

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发表于 2015-12-22 20:48 | 只看该作者
jerseyv 发表于 2015-12-21 17:44
在現在還能擁槍的環境下,權貴們都這麼為所欲為了。不能想像禁槍以後,P民還能剩下多少公義

剩蛋快乐! 请问这个视频是不是引发了一个案子 公民联合诉联邦选举委员会?
以枪会友 共同进步
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发表于 2015-12-23 00:05 | 只看该作者
Huntington 发表于 2015-12-21 20:23
首先我很高兴楼主能在枪友会理性地讨论这个问题。如果有自信自己是对的,不妨理性地讨论一下。

...
在没有有效收缴非法枪支的方法的情况下,任何更严的控枪法律,就是纯粹帮坏人。

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53#
发表于 2015-12-23 06:31 | 只看该作者
"好比现在的无人飞行器,联邦要求注册,你会铤而走险不注册么?"
我知道的同学里面有DJI的总共有8个人,没有一个去FAA注册的
LA要上缴30+弹匣,有几个交了?
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发表于 2015-12-23 06:56 | 只看该作者
jerseyv 发表于 2015-12-22 17:27
"但是2A在美国这个已经高度文明的国家是不再适用"

有人知法犯法還可以出來選總統,這是高度文明了? ...

在世界上和其他国家比一下呢?
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发表于 2015-12-23 07:01 | 只看该作者
qlblx 发表于 2015-12-22 16:37
"更不用说枪是反抗政府暴政的最后防线。"说得好,这才是2A的真正目的,防止权贵垄断三权,滥用政府实施 ...

这个。。。世界上“民主”国家禁枪的只多不少。。。

毛时候文攻武卫,那是全民拥枪的民兵组织吧,还有抢军队军火的。。。  也就是邓上来靠严打才收缴的。

争这个其实很没意思。 还是继续实际讨论吧 :-)
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发表于 2015-12-23 07:03 | 只看该作者
7seven 发表于 2015-12-22 20:28
守法、正常的人民拥枪的权利不可侵犯!没有可以讨论的余地。要讨论就是要蚕食人民的权利。

罪犯不守法,不 ...

最初觉得禁全自动有点道理,后来发现bump fire stock完全合法,不比全自动慢多少,就觉得法律有时候很搞笑
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发表于 2015-12-23 07:27 | 只看该作者
oskarlre 发表于 2015-12-23 09:01
这个。。。世界上“民主”国家禁枪的只多不少。。。

毛时候文攻武卫,那是全民拥枪的民兵组织吧,还有抢 ...

其实这正好说明那些禁枪的“民主”国家其实并不“民主”,是权贵资产阶级统治的伪民主。

毛时代搞的这些,其实是对全民大民主的一次社会实验,只不过因为造成了社会动荡的恶果,实验失败了。用毛泽东的话说,枪杆子里出政权,所以全民皆兵就是权在人民,这点和美国国父们的2A有异曲同工之妙。
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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58#
发表于 2015-12-23 07:56 | 只看该作者
brucewayne 发表于 2015-12-22 11:13
既然非要谈本质,请问汽车算0-60加速什么意思,quarter mile time什么意思,top speed什么意思  ...

你提供了很好的论据:
0-60, quarter mile, top speed都是反应汽车性能的参数,超不超速全看司机了。是这个理吧?
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三枪客认证教员携枪执照

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发表于 2015-12-23 08:12 | 只看该作者
TexasGunNut 发表于 2015-12-23 07:27
其实这正好说明那些禁枪的“民主”国家其实并不“民主”,是权贵资产阶级统治的伪民主。

毛时代搞的这些 ...

我是针对他说的共产党当权就禁枪的说法 ^^

TG独裁的话,为啥毛就让大家都有枪,还全民皆兵训练,不怕造反哈?
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发表于 2015-12-23 08:30 | 只看该作者
oskarlre 发表于 2015-12-23 10:12
我是针对他说的共产党当权就禁枪的说法 ^^

TG独裁的话,为啥毛就让大家都有枪,还全民皆兵训练,不怕造 ...

所谓TG独裁和人类希望美利坚一样,最多算是个标签,拿它们当真就输了。

毛时代到改开前的TG,包括苏联和共产党执政的东欧国家,都标榜自己是无产阶级人民当家作主的民主国家,西方阵营仅仅标榜自己是自由社会。后来TG改开,走国家资本主义和官僚垄断资本主义路线,到苏东剧变和64动乱,共产党国家变色的变色解体的解体,活下来的也都不要民主了,西方才开始标榜自己民主又自由。其实西方大多数都是共和,民主含量比理论上的人民代表大会强不了多少。所谓TG独裁,事实上是纠住TG一党专制不放,TG并不独裁,只是威权统治(authoritarian),毛时代就更谈不上独裁,尽管毛泽东自己大权独揽快30年,但是实际上应该算是很民主的,要不然几个P民怎么拿着枪就敢造反有理,占领地方政府机构呢

政治这玩艺水太深,我这也是一家之言瞎胡咧咧~
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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