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[弹药知识] 问行家们一个关于40s&w口径kaboom的问题

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发表于 2014-10-16 15:47 | 只看该作者 回帖奖励 |倒序浏览 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 maxsterling 于 2014-10-16 22:27 编辑

好像网上都这么说,40s&w的膛压大,导致用unsupported chamber时会有kaboom的危险。
但是我去查了一下,40s&w的膛压是35K psi,9mm的膛压是34.2K-35K psi,9mm+P的膛压是37K psi,357 sig的膛压是40K psi。
如果说40s&w容易爆膛的话,那9mm+P及357 sig不是更容易爆?而且9mm普通弹的膛压也快赶上40s&w了,maximum膛压的是一样了,弄不成9mm也比45ACP要危险得多?
但是大家谈论的好像只有40s&w的安全问题,难道是这个40口径的cartridge设计有问题?

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沙发
发表于 2014-10-16 17:13 | 只看该作者
不是行家,听说的,按我自己的理解。

说.40S&W的弹壳并不长,所以装好药后的剩余空间不大。如果弹头压进去较多,或者装药多一点,就会导致空间更小,然后就导致压力增加很多。不像其它口径,余量较大,即使装药过量,增加的压力也会在可控的范围内。

你列的膛压都是正常情况下。 kaboom都是子弹装得有问题导致的。
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板凳
发表于 2014-10-16 17:46 来自手机 | 只看该作者
问题是9毫米的弹壳比点40的更短
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发表于 2014-10-16 17:54 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 happydad 于 2014-10-16 18:17 编辑
longlive 发表于 2014-10-16 17:13
不是行家,听说的,按我自己的理解。

说.40S&W的弹壳并不长,所以装好药后的剩余空间不大。如果弹头压进去 ...

我跟你理解正好相反,.40蛋壳短,装药空间有限,那么装多药的可能性就几乎没有,膛压增高的可能也就几乎没有了,只要用的枪药对头那岂不是更不可能爆膛?
蛋壳内的空间多少会导致膛压增高很多?关键还是装药的品种和量吧?除了枪药的品种,制造膛压的应该主要是燃烧枪药后产生的气体的数量相关吧? 我的理解是药多了膛压就高,药少了膛压就小.还有弹头的重量或是装太紧了对膛压会有影响,而跟蛋壳内剩余多少空气关系不太大吧?
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发表于 2014-10-16 18:36 | 只看该作者
longlive 发表于 2014-10-16 17:13
不是行家,听说的,按我自己的理解。

说.40S&W的弹壳并不长,所以装好药后的剩余空间不大。如果弹头压进去 ...

我不懂,但是我觉得你的说法有点儿怪。
同等答案。
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6#
发表于 2014-10-16 19:24 | 只看该作者
kaboom是chamber问题导致吧,不是fully support复装的药量
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7#
发表于 2014-10-16 19:40 | 只看该作者
happydad 发表于 2014-10-16 17:54
我跟你理解正好相反,.40蛋壳短,装药空间有限,那么装多药的可能性就几乎没有,膛压增高的可能也就几乎没 ...

手枪弹壳里的火药只用了1/3到1/2的空间,要多装点不要太容易啊

另外,膛压一定,直径越大,弹壳受力也越大
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发表于 2014-10-16 20:20 | 只看该作者
pressure 一样,但是40的直径大一些,导致hoop stress 大不少。你去搜一下hoop stress 的公式就知道了。计算管道,压力容器之类的,都用到的。直径大一点,stress大不少的。
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9#
发表于 2014-10-16 20:38 来自手机 | 只看该作者
CiTY_HuNTeR 发表于 2014-10-16 19:24
kaboom是chamber问题导致吧,不是fully support复装的药量

9毫米的很多chamber就不是完全支持的
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发表于 2014-10-16 21:02 | 只看该作者
有点复杂
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11#
发表于 2014-10-17 04:46 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 longlive 于 2014-10-17 07:56 编辑

这有篇文章讲为什么180gr 的弹头可能有问题。

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

Why the 180gr Bullet is a Bad Choice for .40 S&W
The original design of the .40S&W cartridge called for a one hundred and eighty grain (180gr) bullet pushed down a barrel with a 1-in-16 twist to a muzzle velocity between 950 and 980 feet per second (fps). This matched the "FBI Lite" or "medium velocity" 10mm loads that were becoming popular at that time.

However, in the years that followed, experience and experiment have shown that the standard 180gr bullet weight is not the best choice for .40S&W handguns. Because of the relatively small cartridge case and long bullet, this particular combination does not maximize the .40’s potential.  
        

The official industry pressure specification for .40S&W is 35,000 pounds per square inch, just like the 9mm.
THE CASE OF THE CASES

A 10mm brass case is approximately 0.992" long, while new .40 brass is only 0.850" long; the difference is 0.142 inches. Since the size of the 180gr bullet remains constant, there is significantly less space inside the .40S&W case than the 10mm case when loaded. That means there’s much less room for error, since pressures build more quickly in that small space. Also, the 10mm was designed for a peak mean pressure higher than the .40 … which means the 10mm brass is engineered to handle greater pressure than the .40 case.
CAN'T TAKE THE PRESSURE?

As mentioned above, the .40S&W was never intended to be a high-pressure round like the .357 Magnum, 10mm, or 357SIG. In fact, the SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) specification for the .40S&W is the same as the 9mm spec (35kpsi). Furthermore, there is no such thing as "+p" ammunition for the .40S&W. Manufacturers claiming to produce "+p" .40S&W ammunition are either lying (the ammo is really within standard pressure allowances) or taking risks with your life. Using ammunition rated over SAAMI spec in a .40S&W handgun is very dangerous and should not be attempted.

However, because of the deep-seated 180gr bullets, there is very little extra case volume left after powder and bullet are added to the case. Even the smallest variation in bullet seating or powder volume drastically affects the volume of space inside the case where the chemical reaction occurs which builds the pressure which sends the bullet down the barrel. These minor variations, therefore, make it very easy to get an overpressure situation with a 180gr bullet.  The table below shows how dramatically peak pressures increase when the bullet is seated too deeply.

Overall Length     Pressure
1.140"         26,195 psi
1.130"         27,521 psi
1.120"         29,079 psi
1.115"         29,924 psi
1.100"         32,900 psi
1.075"         39,641 psi
1.050"         50,954 psi
1.040"         57,926 psi
1.030"         66,890 psi
1.020"         80,345 psi
1.010"         101,286 psi
1.000"         138,744 psi


Standard OAL for the .40S&W is 1.120" ... table data from "Handloading" by Charles E. Petty, American Handgunner Jan/Feb 1998, p41.
THE MANUFACTURERS KNOW THIS

For this reason, most factory .40S&W 180gr ammunition is loaded a little on the weak side. In order to keep a given load below SAAMI specification for mean pressure, the rounds have to be loaded below their optimal performance level. Why? Because factory ammo is subject to these same minor variations. If companies produced ammunition which was, on average, maximum pressure, every once and a while a round would be significantly OVER pressure. Because such over pressure rounds are unacceptable, the average round has to be "dropped down" a notch in power so there is a wider envelope of safe operation.

This "reduced power" problem is easily seen when the 180gr .40 is compared to the 165gr bullets in the same caliber. While experience tells us that, for any particular caliber and pressure standard, heavier bullets have more momentum (as measured by an IPSC Power Factor) than lighter bullets, this is not the case for the .40S&W – an average 180gr load moves at around 975fps and as a PF of 175.5; an average 165gr load at 1,130fps has a PF of 186.5, a VERY big difference denoting significantly greater momentum (as well as energy).

Some "average" Power Factors:

Load                                     PF

9mm 115gr 1160fps             133.4
9mm+p 115gr 1250fps         143.8
.40SW 135gr 1300fps         175.5
.40SW 165gr 1100fps         181.5
.40SW 180gr 960fps         172.8
357SIG 125gr 1300fps         162.5
.357Mag 125gr 1450fps         181.3
.38Spl+p 158gr 890fps         140.6
.45ACP 230gr 850fps         195.5
.45ACP+p 185gr 1140fps         210.9
.44Mag 240gr 1180fps         283.2

As a side note, the full-power 165gr .40S&W has about the same momentum as most factory .45ACP ammunition out of a barrel of the same length.
A TWIST IN THE STORY

Rate of twist affects how quickly the bullet spins as it leaves the barrel.  A 1-in-16 twist means that the bullet will spin one full rotation in 16 inches.  So, a 1-in-14 twist (bullet rotates once in 14 inches) is "faster" than 1-in-16.  Barrels are designed this way because bullets are spin stabilized, just like a football when you throw a good spiral.

Some folks in the ammunition industry have mentioned to me that one problem with the .40 and 180gr bullets is related to the 1-in-16 barrel twist used in these guns. The experts have been able to perform their own tests with alternative barrels and, with the 180gr bullets, have achieved greater accuracy and velocity (one source safely and consistently made around 1,050fps with a 180gr bullet with a 1-in-14 twist) when using something other than the 1-in-16.
THE kB! PHENOMENON

Another bit of evidence pointing toward the mismatch of .40S&W and the 180gr bullet comes from Dean Speir’s extensive research into the kB! ("kaboom") phenomenon, especially with Glock handguns. Due to their partially unsupported chambers, .40S&W Glocks tend to work the web of brass cases more than usual. Constant reworking of the brass by reloaders (who put the brass through a cycle of expansion and resizing each time) weakens the web.

According to Mr. Speir, the vast majority of kB!’s reported with .40S&W handguns have occurred when firing 180gr bullets.

So here you have a chamber design which is not as supportive as it could be, and a load (the full power 180gr .40) which has a tendency towards major pressure fluctuations. Add to this mix brass which has been aged prematurely due to the extra work at the web and it’s easy to see that a particularly unlucky brass could be the unlucky home of one of the high-end pressure spikes and result in a kB!

For more information about the kB! phenomenon, see The kB! FAQ located at at this site.
MY ADVICE AND PREDICTION

Most manufacturers have begun producing 165gr loads for the .40S&W now. While some load them light for "reduced recoil" (such as Federal’s 165gr HydraShok and Speer’s 165gr Gold Dot), other companies are squeezing the maximum potential from the bullet by pushing it to the neighborhood of 1,100 to 1,150fps out of a standard 4" barrel. As mentioned above, this results in more momentum and energy downrange as well as less risk of pressure fluctuations. And because of the reduced variation in pressure, 165gr loads tend to be the most accurate in .40S&W handguns, as well.

In my humble opinion, the 165gr is the proper choice for people who normally choose the "slow and heavy" bullets for defensive use. The FBI apparently agrees, as they broke their long standing tradition of using the heaviest bullets available when they approved two .40S&W rounds for use by agents, both of them 165 grainers.

The 165gr is really the optimum choice for .40S&W shooters.  It tends to be more accurate, have greater muzzle energy and momentum, and it significantly reduces the dangers associated with possible bullet setback (a bullet can, through normal handling, seat itself more deeply just by being loaded into the chamber of a gun, etc).  I think you'll see the 180gr loads become less and less popular as time goes on, and within a few years the 165gr will be the standard for the .40S&W, while the 180gr will be all but extinct.

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发表于 2014-10-17 05:29 | 只看该作者
longlive 发表于 2014-10-17 04:46
这有篇文章讲为什么180gr 的弹头可能有问题。

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

这才是有数据,又真相。
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发表于 2014-10-17 06:01 | 只看该作者
longlive 发表于 2014-10-17 07:46
这有篇文章讲为什么180gr 的弹头可能有问题。

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm

所以一点变动都有影响啊,对复装精度要求更高了
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14#
发表于 2014-10-17 07:18 来自手机 | 只看该作者
哈,发现我的想法和专家的一致啊,180格令对于49sw来说太重,所以我一直选用155或者165格令弹头。180格令只有一个好处,就是它是亚音速适合用消音器
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发表于 2014-10-17 07:42 | 只看该作者
这结果对9mm重弹头也一样,所以,自己装的话,还是用115格令的。
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发表于 2014-10-17 07:47 来自手机 | 只看该作者
graycat2006 发表于 2014-10-17 07:42
这结果对9mm重弹头也一样,所以,自己装的话,还是用115格令的。

对,就看弹壳里面的剩余空间,剩余空间大,就比较安全,剩余空间小就比较危险。

不知道9毫米的147格令弹药如何?

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 楼主| 发表于 2014-10-17 07:48 | 只看该作者
longlive 发表于 2014-10-17 04:46
这有篇文章讲为什么180gr 的弹头可能有问题。

http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/40/180gr.htm


灰常灰常的科学。
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发表于 2014-10-17 07:48 | 只看该作者
graycat2006 发表于 2014-10-17 07:42
这结果对9mm重弹头也一样,所以,自己装的话,还是用115格令的。

那defense round 124+p和147比哪个更危险呢?。。。。
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发表于 2014-10-17 07:57 | 只看该作者
that is why my favorite 40sw ammo is winchester 165grain fmj.
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发表于 2014-10-17 08:03 | 只看该作者
akula 发表于 2014-10-17 07:47
对,就看弹壳里面的剩余空间,剩余空间大,就比较安全,剩余空间小就比较危险。

不知道9毫米的147格令弹 ...

9mm弹壳小,同样压强下,弹壳的应力小一些。另外,这个现象跟火药的特性也有关系。我拆了很多罗马尼亚的军剩7.62X25, 里面的火药是黄绿色,基本塞得满满的。一般用titegroup装4格令就可以,这里面装了8格令。我用6.4格令这种药装了40发9mm, 效果不错。
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