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[CCW] 也谈随身携枪是否上膛

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发表于 2013-5-29 06:23 | 只看该作者
wolfcreek 发表于 2013-5-29 06:51
哈哈,人家老美从小接触枪,我们从小接触玩具枪,打弹弓。。。

你碰到一个比你用枪厉害的老美概率是很大 ...

靶场多比较一下就看到了,从小接触枪,就是更早碰到瓶颈期。
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发表于 2013-5-29 06:28 | 只看该作者
Qingshi 发表于 2013-5-29 07:22
带枪上膛倒也不是走极端, 个人习惯、看法不同罢了。 我觉得上膛不上膛, 两个里面都没有本质性的危险或 ...

不是走极端,是对“假设的出事场景”推演的太极端,这种情况往往说不清。
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发表于 2013-5-29 06:29 | 只看该作者
个人看法:
我CCW的时间还是太短,心理上没碰到过"condition red"的情况。碰到"condition orange"的也只有寥寥几次。
所以我听从那些教练、资深作者的意见,只要带枪就上膛。平时多练,让手指离开扳机成为自然肌肉记忆,让收枪入套按住击锤(指现在的PCR)成为自然肌肉记忆。
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发表于 2013-5-29 06:34 | 只看该作者
Qingshi 发表于 2013-5-29 06:57
一点个人见解:

上膛要多长时间?0.2秒? 0.3秒? 如果连这么短的时间认为都是至关重要的, 那其它方面能 ...

算上抽枪和瞄准的时间,就很长了,这是要尽量缩短的。

其实每个人只要保持自己选择的方式带枪就好,平时怎么训练就怎么带。比如我上膛总是不自觉地低头看枪,就会影响视线,尤其出现tunnel vision的时候会非常危险,所以我还是选择上膛带枪。

另外还要看带枪的种类,比较容易走火的glock不上膛也好。
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发表于 2013-5-29 06:43 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 brucewayne 于 2013-5-29 07:53 编辑

转发Cornered Cat的一篇文章,是否上膛带枪


From time to time, people ask me, “Should I carry the gun completely loaded, with a round in the chamber?” The short answer is: yes. There are a lot of reasons for that, and most of the people who ask this question have already heard at least a few of these reasons from helpful friends. But they’re still not comfortable with actually doing it.

To quickly recap what you almost certainly already know, when you leave the chamber empty on a carry gun, you add both time and complexity to using the gun if you need it. That added time might not matter. Then again, it might be the most important time you’ve ever lost. The added complexity might not matter. Then again, it might. You might not have both hands free to run the gun. You might need one hand to hold onto a young child, or push an older child down and to safety. You might be trying to hold a door shut, or trying to hold the attacker off you with one hand while drawing with the other. The fight might have started with a severe injury to one of your hands, arms, or shoulders. There’s just no way to know what the need will be until you’re there, but all of these situations would keep you from using both hands to load the gun, and some of them would make it impossible for you to load the gun at all. That could be absolutely devastating under the right wrong set of circumstances. For all these reasons, it’s best to carry a fully-loaded gun.

That’s the why for carrying a round in the chamber. But most people don’t hang up on the why. They’re more concerned with how. How can this be done – safely? If they can’t answer that question to their own comfort, all the whys in the world won’t convince them to do it.

Two challenges

So how can we safely carry with a round in the chamber? There are a lot of people who really want to carry this way, but they’re afraid to. These people almost always have one of two concerns they need to take care of. They are:

A bad habit.
Bad gear.
Both of these problems are fixable.


First, about bad habits. If you have developed the bad habit of treating your gun less respectfully because it’s “not loaded,” that’s something you need to change in your thinking, and also in how you handle the gun. Go refresh your understanding of the four rules, and learn more about holster safety and the four rules. Then practice handling the gun properly every time you touch it, no matter what. Never give yourself an excuse: “it’s not loaded,” or “the safety is on,” or “I’m just cleaning it,” or “I’m just putting it in its case.” These are common excuses, but that’s all they are – excuses. Don’t indulge them! Practice following all the rules, all the time. Never take the gun out of its case until you have turned the case so the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction. Whenever you pick up the gun, whether you’re taking it out of the safe, or off your nightstand, put your straightened finger high on the frame and keep it up there. Always control your muzzle direction, and never let your non-shooting hand drift in front of the muzzle, even when you believe the gun “isn’t loaded.” Work hard to build those good habits and make them a part of you.

But bad habits aren’t as common as bad gear. Bad gear means one of several things, but most commonly it means either a poor holster or a poor carry method. Frankly, I don’t blame people for being nervous about this one. If I thought there was a chance my gun could fling itself out of my holster at some random time, or if I thought the trigger could “pull itself” whenever I  wasn’t paying attention, you’d have a hard time talking me into carrying a gun at all – let alone a loaded one. Fortunately, it isn’t like that. We simply have to shop wisely.

All holsters are not alike. Some provide excellent security, while others… don’t. There are a lot of really poor products on the market right now. Fortunately, there are also a lot of really awesome ones available too. The trick is learning to tell the difference – and having the self-discipline to stick with the safe ones even when the unsafe ones look really cool.

So what makes the difference between a good holster and a bad one? A good holster does three vital things for your firearm. That is, it

Safely secures the gun;
Keeps the gun comfortably concealed; and
Holds the gun in a way that is easily accessible.

You can find out more about all three of these points in the latest article on Cornered Cat, How to Choose a Safe Holster. For right now, though, let’s focus on that first point, because that’s where the hang up usually is when it comes to carrying with a round in the chamber.

Not long ago, I was talking with a new shooter who wanted to know how to manage her concealed firearm when she used a public restroom. “It really feels unsafe to me,” she said, “because it seems to take three hands and all my attention to keep from dropping the gun when I take my pants down.” When I asked her what kind of holster she’d been using, it turned out to be one of those floppy, loose-fitting gun-bucket thingies you can get for $15 at any gun store. She was relieved when I told her that she simply needed to step up to a better holster, one that would pass the Tip Test, and she’d be much safer and more comfortable. She just needed a holster that she could trust to keep the gun when she put it there.

Guns that fall out of holsters are one danger. Here’s another: holsters that slither down your leg inside your clothing. If you need to use the gun at all, it may very well be after a few minutes of running from or rassling with a bad guy. Don’t choose a holster that may not be there when you need it, no matter how secure it might seem on a calm day at the range. Choose one that actually attaches to either your body or your clothing.

That takes care of the “secure” part of holding the gun. But let’s talk a little more about the “safely” part. Whatever carry method you use, and whatever holster type you choose, it has to be something that will protect the trigger from outside influences. Years ago, it was common for holsters to leave the trigger exposed. This made sense with old-fashioned single-action cowboy revolvers, which would never fire unless the shooter pulled the hammer back by hand. But modern revolvers and modern semi-auto carry guns will fire when you press the trigger, and that means the trigger must be protected from unexpected events. So make sure the holster or carry method you choose will definitely cover the trigger and the entire trigger guard area, and that it protects the trigger from outside movement.

The Bottom Line

So here’s the bottom line: you really should carry with a round in the chamber. If you’re not willing to do that right now, think about improving either your gun handling habits or your carry gear – or both. You’ll be glad you did!
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发表于 2013-5-29 06:48 | 只看该作者
brucewayne 发表于 2013-5-29 07:34
算上抽枪和瞄准的时间,就很长了,这是要尽量缩短的。

其实每个人只要保持自己选择的方式带枪就好,平时 ...


坐在我旁边的美国同事,大老板,60岁,越战退伍老兵,3-gun competition冠军,CHL instructor, 每月至少去靶场一次,家有70多把枪,一个非常典型的老美,跟我们公司其他老美一样,见面就谈枪。

他目前车上放有两把枪,一把XD9, 一把bodyguard 380.

他特别反对Glock,说他看到Glock走火打伤大腿的例子太多。他喜欢XD,有两个safety。

当然,他绝对上膛带枪。他说,他一般不出枪,一旦出枪,必让对方死。


这就是老美的持枪用枪理念。
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发表于 2013-5-29 06:56 | 只看该作者
wolfcreek 发表于 2013-5-29 07:48
坐在我旁边的美国同事,大老板,60岁,越战退伍老兵,3-gun competition冠军,CHL instructor, 每月至少 ...

我也再网上看到不少Glock走火的例子虽然基本也是人的错,但风险总是稍高一些的

一般CHL instructor是推荐上膛的,至少我上课的所有instructor对此没有任何异议,有人提问了,他们的回答一致。当然需要练习,需要提高警惕,时刻follow the FOUR RULES
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-5-29 08:20 | 只看该作者
Qingshi 发表于 2013-5-29 06:57
一点个人见解:

上膛要多长时间?0.2秒? 0.3秒? 如果连这么短的时间认为都是至关重要的, 那其它方面能 ...

+1
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-5-29 08:25 | 只看该作者
Hetzer 发表于 2013-5-29 07:29
个人看法:
我CCW的时间还是太短,心理上没碰到过"condition red"的情况。碰到"condition orange"的也只有 ...

这些当然都得按这个训练,不管上不上膛。但是不可否认的是即使一切按照安全守则来做,枪本身在枪套里也是有走火的可能的。
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-5-29 08:27 | 只看该作者
brucewayne 发表于 2013-5-29 07:43
转发Cornered Cat的一篇文章,是否上膛带枪

这个的论点也是"it might",但是上膛也同样might走火伤到家人,所以还是自己权衡吧
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发表于 2013-5-29 09:24 | 只看该作者
Olly 发表于 2013-5-29 09:27
这个的论点也是"it might",但是上膛也同样might走火伤到家人,所以还是自己权衡吧 ...

是的,基本上是个人偏好问题,就像买车险,有人只买liability,有人deductible高有人低,我的deductible 500,但修车花了600我还是自掏腰包了。道理都差不多的
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发表于 2013-5-29 09:59 | 只看该作者
Olly 发表于 2013-5-29 09:25
这些当然都得按这个训练,不管上不上膛。但是不可否认的是即使一切按照安全守则来做,枪本身在枪套里也是 ...

一切按照安全规则来做,扳机又被枪套完全包覆,怎么可能走火。
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-5-29 10:05 | 只看该作者
Hetzer 发表于 2013-5-29 10:59
一切按照安全规则来做,扳机又被枪套完全包覆,怎么可能走火。

机械的东西总是会有故障的。
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发表于 2013-5-29 11:19 | 只看该作者
Olly 发表于 2013-5-29 11:05
机械的东西总是会有故障的。

机械故障导致走火,多见于保险、击锤释放杆这一类的东西导致的
枪插在套里然后走火的,纯出于机械故障而非人为因素,求实例。
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-5-29 11:22 | 只看该作者
Hetzer 发表于 2013-5-29 12:19
机械故障导致走火,多见于保险、击锤释放杆这一类的东西导致的
枪插在套里然后走火的,纯出于机械故障而 ...

虽然少还是有的
比如:http://www.courierpress.com/news ... thru533-detroit-ap/
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发表于 2013-5-29 11:35 | 只看该作者
Olly 发表于 2013-5-29 12:22
虽然少还是有的
比如:http://www.courierpress.com/news/2012/jul/09/bc-us--fatal-hug-11th-ld-writeth ...

明显枪套不好,另外枪怎么会转110度朝上?
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-5-29 11:40 | 只看该作者
brucewayne 发表于 2013-5-29 12:35
明显枪套不好,另外枪怎么会转110度朝上?

具体我也不清楚。只是想说明总会有意外发生的。
枪套不好当然是一个可以部分预防的原因,但也未必就能完全防止走火。
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发表于 2013-5-29 11:45 | 只看该作者
Olly 发表于 2013-5-29 12:40
具体我也不清楚。只是想说明总会有意外发生的。
枪套不好当然是一个可以部分预防的原因,但也未必就能完 ...

这个例子挺有趣的,文中也提到是软枪套,“soft, neoprene-type material”
很明显是那女的隔着枪套扣到了扳机。

怎么把枪口弄成向上的角度,就想不明白了。
话说已经一年有余,谁搜索能力强的,去找找警方报告吧?

我感觉这起事故恰恰说明了还是良好的用枪习惯最重要。
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发表于 2013-5-29 11:53 | 只看该作者
Olly 发表于 2013-5-29 12:40
具体我也不清楚。只是想说明总会有意外发生的。
枪套不好当然是一个可以部分预防的原因,但也未必就能完 ...

好枪套+好习惯是一定能避免走火伤人的,其中最重要的是secure trigger,大多数意外击发都是触发扳机导致,有人为的,有枪套不对的,有衣服卡到的。

我的原则是,击锤不升,扳机不动,枪是无法击发的,不管机械如何故障,没有动力击发枪就是inert。

为做到以上两点,上膛必入套,入套就绝不碰枪,不draw不reholster,枪与枪套一体。只有self defense时才出枪,之后也不用reholster了,直接把枪分解放地上等警察叔叔了。

所有练习时一概空枪+snapcap
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发表于 2017-1-12 00:01 | 只看该作者
作为一个加拿大枪友,看你们讨论的这么热烈,我插不上话。我们根本不让随身携带。不用想了。
其次,枪上膛与否还要看用途。警察经常用枪,他们用枪的概率非常高,因此他们需要上膛。 普通人用枪概率太低了,比你中彩票还低,高度估计百万分之一,但是你上膛后,犯错误的概率相对挺高的,乐观估计你能做到千分之一就很好了。两者相差1000倍啊。 权衡利弊,看个人情况,与操作熟练。
举个例子,医疗急救包很有用,你会随身携带吗?
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